Choda, in response to your question, the fact that there are only two students (that I know of) participating in this discussion would lead me to conclude that you did attack me personally. Apparently that was not your intention, so I apologize.

Maggi, teaching is not a 9 month per year job. Please learn that, then continue complaining when you have more facts about the job.

well, i guess this is a good example of where you get your info and how different it can be, i looked at a few sites and found the best breakdown at city-data.com, which shows this:

Estimated median household income in 2005: $51,867 ($46,707 in 2000)

This county $51,867 Pennsylvania: $44,537

So, even with these updated figures, income for a family is still only at 55K, again, 1/2 above and 1/2 below, I'll have to look back at the CV website where I found the original figures, not sure which page it was on, it might have been on the teacher negotiations page, I know there are alot of other sites out there.

also, i did read over my post and I was clear, it said: their total income together was over 100K, sorry you misread that, but i did point out it was both of them making over 40K, plus 20K in summer jobs, so again, i stand by the fact that there are many in this district who are making much less, even with degrees, and even with both parents having to work.

and I should point out, that I have nothing against the majority of the teachers in the district, most are excellent teachers and work hard, what I have a problem is is the union, the blackmailing, the bullying, and the fact that somehow they expect to be paid more than most people for only 9 months of work and excellent, above average benefits and excellent, above average vacations yearround. that, I have a problem with.

You never mentioned they were married, it sounded like you had two individual friends who each make 100K.

I'm not sure where you're getting 47K. The school board's negotiations update states the average salary in Cumberland County is $40,352. That encompasses the whole county though, but I'd imagine that areas outside of CV would only bring the average down.

According to the census, the median family income (in 2006 inflation-adjusted dollars) is $69,890. Once again this is all of Cumberland County. Big difference between almost 70K and 47K.

Source: http://fastfacts.census.gov/servlet/ACSSAFFFacts?_event=&geo_id=05000US42041&_geoContext=01000US%7C04000US42%7C05000US42041&_street=&_county=Cumberland+county%2C+PA&_cityTown=Cumberland+county%2C+PA&_state=04000US42&_zip=&_lang=en&_sse=on&ActiveGeoDiv=geoSelect&_useEV=&pctxt=fph&pgsl=050&_submenuId=factsheet_1&ds_name=DEC_2000_SAFF&_ci_nbr=null&qr_name=null®=null%3Anull&_keyword=&_industry=

nfanion: You didn't really read my post, what I said, was my friends are married and both teachers, making about 80K together, then adding in their summer jobs, they, again, together make over 100K! Now, according to CV's own website, the median (which means 1/2 of the families, not individuals, families make less and 1/2 make more) income in CV district is 47K, which means, that even if the teacher was the sole income and didn't work an extra job, they would be right around the median income.

Where I think the loss of support comes from those 1/2 that make less as a family and still are probably paying more in health care benefits and don't only work 190 days (yes, yes, I know they prep and all, but so do alot of other jobs off the clock, heck, my husband sells insurance and has to take tons of CEU's and certifications and none of them are paid for nor included during his regular hours).

That was a bit much Blass.

A teacher told me today that 24% of the high school's students were absent yesterday, so 76% in attendance. Maggi I saw you mentioned choir earlier, I also learned that the choir teacher is not a union member and wasn't at school yesterday.

A teacher at CV making over 100K? If that's true, even with a summer job, the large majority of teachers at CV would never make that much. Half of the CV teachers make less than $47,000 a year. CV is not an average school, why should its teachers be held to average pay? I do wish there was some sort of merit system as it is very hard to get rid of a bad teacher. I have yet to think of an effective way to measure teacher performance fairly though.

choda,(blass982 is a student, right?) actually it was a student who did the meanlingless math, wasn't it? I never said I hated the teachers or even feel most of them are inept, I am talking about pay, increases, etc. I just talked with two friends who are teachers, they both work part time over the summer, which brings their total income to over 100K, and great benefits. They love their job and of course, love the pay, teaching is something you have to really like to do, just like nursing, you can't fake your way through that job. But, when I pulled the stats on the CV district, the median family income is only 47K, so the teachers are certainly within a fair wage and that's with only one teacher, not counting another spouse's income.

I called attendance today and were told they didn't give that information out, which is interesting, isn't it? Don't the teachers on here get a daily attendance sheet? That should solve that question?

It's good that you use English properly and if you check a little lower I defended you earlier. I just thought is was kind of broad to make it seem as if the English of every student on was really that much better than the adults and, no I don't hate the teachers. I was just suggesting some of these people rethink their own decisions since they seem to hate them so. Personally, I use word, being a college student. It's easy and I'm a terrible speller. I do however need to say you're a bit too standoffish. CALM DOWN PLEASE. It's a public forum I have my rights to type what I feel. I did not attack you personally did I?

P.s. Just to make you feel a little more foolish than you already should, Word does not choose the right FORM of word (i.e. their, there, they're; here, hear; etc.) it only checks to see if the words are spelled correctly and if you're using adjectives to modify nouns and adverbs to modify verbs, adjectives, or other adverbs. Thanks for trying, though!

LB, thank you for showing your own hatred for teachers. To have the audacity to accuse us (Fanion and I) of using Word to check our spelling and grammar is absolutely ridiculous, and shows that you also feel that teachers are incapable of educating students. I'm a prospective English major and everything that I've said has been typed directly into the comment box, thank you very much. There seems to be a trend with baseless, incorrect comments on this site. Why would you add to it?

For hating teachers so much I'm quite surprised some of you send your children to school. If you honestly think them to be as inept as you say perhaps you should look into teaching your children yourself or sending them elsewhere, something private perhaps. Yes, it may be a bit more costly or time involving, but education is very important, of course. Oh and, Choda, I mostly agree with yours except that the students are much more computer savvy than parents. When Word does the spelling and grammar for you of course you're going to get it right. Ah the beauty of copy and paste.

You know, it's interesting to read the posts of the students. At least they can spell, post an opinion without attacking another's with stupid meaningless math about attendance, and contribute a fresh voice. I think that speaks volumes for the teachers at CV.

Why can't you all just let it go? Your rantings after the fact are senseless and mean nothing in the scheme of things. The strike's cancelled, the kids are in school, and it seems all that is left are a bunch of bitter old bats trying to gain some satisfaction by prolonging the controversy. Get over yourselves.

Students--I applaud your tact when dealing with some of the unintelligent posters on this site. They can and should learn by your example.

I can say all of my teachers were in school today and I didn't see any subs in the halls or at lunch. That's just my limited point of view though. Maggi, if you made a few emails you could probably get the teacher's attendance information. That information should be available to the public upon request.

I think the problem Blass has (and myself) is that people are posting "facts" or drawing conclusions that are simply incorrect. We see these posts and want people to know the truth. I understand you believe attendance was down today and that is certainly a reasonable conclusion. But I don't think you have enough information to say only 25% of the high school was in attendance.

Here's an "original thought" for you that everyone seems to be overlooking: an agreement has been reached between the school board and union. That is great news. School could have been pushed back to June 30th and that has been averted. I think we can all agree that is a good thing.

There's no reason to "come up with original thoughts," as there's nothing left to discuss, other than how ridiculous some of you are, until the contract numbers come out. One class does not a high school make. 2500 kids in the school.. 25% of 2500 is 625. There were more than 625 kids there, and that was just in our wing (senior & junior). Plus, I never said kids didn't leave, that's just you putting words in my mouth. Furthermore, "I think that's where part of this problem is, teachers are holed up in their own little part of this, their own classroom and aren't looking at the whole district and have no idea what else is going on." --- that doesn't even mean anything. Please elaborate. By the way, why are all these kids texting you? You sure must be a busy-body. I thought you said you had a job.

First of all, Blass982, I said it before, you would gain much better ground if you came up with original thoughts and posts instead of spending each post picking apart others, you want in on the adult conversation, great, make some points, don't just echo and recopy every elses, be original.

Uh, not sure I understand the math, I was talking about the high school and some of the classes, not the whole district. One class, the choir, usually has about 170 kids, maybe, and today less than 50 were counted, what's that percentage? Our neighborhood bus has 3 kids on it this morning when it passed and no one was at our bus stop, again, not a scientific poll, but it doesn't take a math genius to figure out that attendance was down. But for percentages, I was referring to the high school and the counts of the students who texted us to let us know.

It would be interesting for someone to actually be able to look at the attendance sheets for both the teachers and the students and get an accurate number. Are those attendance sheets public information? Available to parents or the media? The teacher absences surely should be, after all, we, the taxpayers pay the salary, we should know the attendance?

I personally know three seniors who left in the morning, not a statistical number, but don't say it's not happening, it did! I think that's where part of this problem is, teachers are holed up in their own little part of this, their own classroom and aren't looking at the whole district and have no idea what else is going on.

Maggi, as usual your statements are completely unfounded. Every teacher I talked to (at least 14) had already made their plans for what they were going to do during the strike (besides picket). Those plans included re-reading a book and preparing new material for it, grading papers, and taking time to relax. They had every intention of striking.

Furthermore, Maggi and "Mama," let's say that there are 6000 kids in the district. Let's also say that 2000 of them go to the high school. Assuming every student was at the highschool, that's already 33.3%. Only 1000 kids showing up to the high school? Still 17%. Now, since the numbers are actually larger, let's say they're 6,500 and 2,500. 2500/6500 = 38.5%, 1250/6500 = 19.2%. 25% of 6500 is 1625. I can guarentee you there were more than 1625 kids in all of the schools. I'd wager that it was much closer to 75% attendance than 25%. Please be more responsible in posting your asinine, baseless statements. You're influencing the children.

As for Antman's claims: Antman, post proof or retract.

If the teachers would act like professionals and not post negative comments about "babysitting our juvenile dilinquents", maybe the negative comments about teachers would not have happened.

There has been a great deal of comment made about the whole 4.5% raise...Have any of you thought about that and how little that actually is? If you were working a hourly job and got paid $7.00 an hour...and were given a 4.5% raise...that would be 35 cents...Would you be happy with a 35 cent raise? I wouldn't. I work a part-time job outside of school and make $8.25 currently, plus tips. I get a quarter raise each year...I wish it was more, but really its 3%...so I guess I shouldn't feel bad. When a teacher gets a 4% raise, you still have to remember that there is a lot of "stuff" that comes out of that money...which is with any job...You actually never really see that raise. My union dues and health insurance has totally negated my raise this school year.

I cannot wait to see what this deal is that they came to. I hope it is worth all the horrible comments that were made about the people that are supposedly educating our future. I cannot believe the way people have bashed teachers on both here and in the newspaper through all this...

Just remember, you all had a teacher you loved, you all had a teacher you hated...But in all, you had an education that got you somewhere.....

I completely agree with you. I am unable to provide an accurate percentage just like the other posters. My view is limited just like theirs'. Unfortunately, the post below mine was deleted so it makes my post seem like a bit much. It was made by a high school student and they claimed 50% of the high school was absent.

I'm glad you brought up the other schools. I can't imagine what the younger kids think about this whole situation. My senior class is getting a lot of the attention and that's great - but we're slightly less than 600 kids in a huge district.

nfanion, how many schools do you think are in the CV District? Surely you don't think that the high school was the only facility effected by this situation.

There are 10 total schools, not counting the Votech, which wouldn't have been affected by the strike.

You couldn't have possibly been at every single building for lunch or viewed all of their parking lots.

While I believe it is important for our youth to learn to discuss issues important to them, I feel that it is also important to do so in a responsible way.

It is vital to be able to look at the big picture, and not just your immediate surroundings.

The district is MUCH bigger than your classrooms.

Please consider this when attempting to pick apart and bash other posters.

25%? 50%? What!?

While some students did try to leave due to the media reporting that absences would be excused and the administration squelched it by saying the report was "erroneous," those percentages are crazy.

The parking lot was still packed, lunches were still full, and while there were some absences, plenty of my classes had almost all the kids there. Before you start posting numbers, provide some proof that they were truthful!

I agree that some classes were "pointless," I was able to catch up on work and make sure I knew when things were due.

Anyone have ideas how many were in school today? My daughter got several texts about it, it looks like maybe 25%? Also, we got reports of teachers who weren't in school either, what's up with that? Several students did leave today after realizing that absolutely nothing was going to happen (this is high school level,don't know about elementary) and they were wasting their time.

My personal opinion about calling off the strike? I think it's probably a mixture of the reasons people listed, I also believe that when they left the negotiations on monday, they knew they probably wouldn't strike even then (at least the union knew that).

I also would disagree that strikes are particularly effective when they only last three days and when the issues at hand, as in case, go way above and beyond what the general public is getting, and I think that is part of why they called it off. All the idea of a strike was doing was ticking people off, causing arguments, and basically making the teachers look greedy.

and yes, I think they did want their holiday, and then took the strike which further alienated them from the general public because of the inconvenience. There have been strikes where almost everyone sided with the teachers, but not in this case, in this case, the strike just caused a further split and distance, it (and the threat of it) did the opposite effect the union wanted.

Steve, the teachers gave up that demand along time ago. Both the teachers and board were willing to meet in the middle. Where is the middle? That was the problem that needed to be negotiated.

As far as parents who can't find someone to watch your kids, I'm curious, what do you do when there is a two-hour delay or cancellation due to weather? A power outage like earlier in the year? On top of that you don't get 48 hour notice.

I learned today that the board's lawyer, Chuck Sweet, wasn't there last night. This was the ONLY meeting he didn't attend. He discouraged the meeting last night because he wasn't going to be there. He gets paid a ridiculous amount of money per hour for his time. Could this be a reason a deal was reached?

Either way, and once again, a deal has been reached that works for both the board and teachers. That is something we should all be relieved about.

Raisin: First, there is no young lady in this debate. Second, I included the words, "unless you don't know anyone [in the area]," and I suspect that 90% of people do. Thank you for reading all posts involved in their entirety.

Also, talking about percentages means nothing when the actual values aren't available. Your 1.5% raise could conceivably be more money than Schlep's. The fact that you haven't gotten a 4%+ raise is a moot point, as is the fact that he has gotten a 4%+ raise. They mean nothing without real numbers. That being said, and I believe someone has touched on this before, 4.5% does not mean salary a * 1.045. It is from a pot of money and is disributed in a pre-determined fashion among all 581 teachers. One teacher of mine, after being ASKED for the information (just to make that clear), said that the last time she got a 4.5% raise, it amounted to $300 per year. The starting salary is $36,000 and change. $36,000 * 1.045 (a 4.5 percent raise) is $1,620. 4.5% does not mean 4.5%.

TBone: You and I both know that was only said to stop even more people from leaving. There was a mass-exodus and they felt that it needed to be stopped in some way, and that they used what they felt was the most effective way available.

Steve, the teachers can only strike for three days this year, and if an agreement cannot be realized, the strike could continue next school year. It still doesn't negate the fact that it isn't an inconvenience.

I was simply putting out there that the strike probably wouldn't be such a big deal if the traditional nuclear family existed as it did in the 50's and 60's. Teachers wouldn't be able to really "hold anyone hostage" because a parent would be home and wouldn't care or need to bother about setting up day-care arrangements.

Choda

I am not sure we can say the strike was effective, yet. As of now, all we know is that the teachers gave up their demand for a 4.9% pay raise. Publicly, the ONLY group known to cave on a demand were the teachers. We don't yet know what, if anything, the board gave up.

There are many reasons for the strike being called off.

1. Perhaps the teachers really only wanted a 4.5% pay raise, and were willing the accept that. 2. Perhaps Foerster realized that public opinion had turned against the teachers. 3. Possibly, the teachers saw it was going to rain today, and didn't want to be invconvenienced 4. It is possible that the teachers realized that, (as I wrote (elsewhere), the strike wasn't really meaningful, since it would only be three days long.

Strikes are effective when you exercise real power over outcomes. Being told you could take three days, and no more, really eviscerated the strike threat. It left the general populace upset, with no real assurance of any possible reasonable outcomes.

I am glad it is over, but please, without any real information as to the motivations behind the resolution, let's don't knee-jerk call it a "success."

I don't get it, WHY wait till the eleventh hour to settle this issue? From what I had heard this problem has been on going for several months? Why not settle it when the contract is a week or two from running out? But it never seems to happen either because on side will not talk to the other. Easy way to avoid it, you strike you lose your job! Just ask any goverment worker?

You know why a strike is so effective? Because it is such an inconvenience to people whose personal lives are more important than the foundations of stability that grow in a traditional nuclear family. In recent decades, there has been a shift in family values that is tearing this country (and our school system) apart. Thirty years ago, people didn't just get divorced because it was convenient. The percentage of people becoming pregnant out of wedlock was a lot lower. People cared more for the welfare and advancement of their children than they do today.

It's interesting to hear the arguments against the strike that revolve around the, "Oh, dear. 'Guess I'll have to find somebody to watch my kid" attitude. Some parents are single parents because of a tragedy, death, or mortal illness and I sympathize with these folks. Other single parents are single by choice: either they have made really poor decisions regarding a mate or they did the nasty with a hint of irresponsibility.

For married folk who have kids AND careers: I hope you do not make the mistake of putting your careers over your kids. The results are devastatingly obvious. Just look at the composition of any preschool program. It's easy to pick out the kids whose parents are involved. When you have kids, THEY are more important that you and your selfish needs.

Schlep1967 I'd like to work where you do. I got a whopping 1.5% raise this past year... I was told that the 1.5% was the highest we could get. You are truly blessed to get such an increase each year. I've lived in this area now for 10 years... I have never received a raise over 3%, at any company.

And to the young lady that said everyone knows someone, or a 15 year old that can watch your children. I am a single mother with no family or friends in the area. I don't know a 15 year old and I don't have any means of finding someone to watch my child in 48 hours. Why don't I know anyone you may ask... because I'm a cancer patient and am sick a lot, so I never get to go out beyond going to the office. It's not as easy for some people. But, this isn't about me. I'm just making a point that not everyone can find someone to watch their child so easily. And during last summer I paid over $1600 for daycare. So to G. William who I made laugh in my last comment from yesterday, I'm glad I amused you sir.

Schlep1967,

Count yourself fortunate as I suspect you are in the minority. I also suspect many, possibly most, people don't even get 4% raises these days. If teachers are going to be expected to get those kind of raises then I think they should be expected to work year round like the rest of us. If not in the classroom during the summer months, then they should be required to attend some sort of full-time vocational training at least a couple of the "off months." If the teachers expect to receive more, the tax payers and students should also have the right to expect more from them.

Duckster, Contrary to what many slackers in this world believe, people do get more than 4% raises in this area. I have been in my job for 5 years and my hourly rate has increased an average of 7.69 percent each year. If the teachers are doing their jobs and not just doing the minimum needed 4 percent is not all that much.

nafanion, thank you for some very much needed, accurate information without the emotion or irrationality that has been on this forum the last few days.

I believe the teachers in CV should all be fired. Who is getting over 4% raises these days and to threaten to strike at 4.4% is rediculous. Their benefits are incredible beyond what any private sector employee gets yet they are always complaining. There should NOT be a teacher's union when taxpayer money is involved. Remember what Reagan did to the air traffic controllers in the 1980's? That is what should be done with these teachers! Duckster

So much misinformation.

Monday's meeting did not last a few minutes. It went on for several hours. The board decided to stop negotiating through a mediator and gave the teacher their proposal with step freezes and a smaller pot of money. When the union saw that, it took them three minutes to reject it.

Maggi, you say Blass and I (who are both male by the way) can't discuss these issues because we aren't working class parents. What gives you a right to when you aren't a teacher? We have been giving you "data" but you seem to just be regurgitating what your kids tell you. Also, neither of us have parents who are in any way involved in education.

The decision to have school today was made by the administration, not the teachers. I think we should all be happy a deal was reached. The strike gave the teachers the leverage that they needed.

According to the school board, you won't see a tax raise even though we have the lowest in the area!

From the board's "Anticipated Questions" file:

"'Won?t any increase of teachers? salaries mean increased citizen taxes?'

No. The Board, as part of our fiduciary stewardship, is sensitive to the tax burden placed on the residents of our community. We have worked hard to manage resources, balancing the needs of providing a great educational program to our students now, and looking to the future, to ensure that we continue to offer the same level of excellence.

Because of our fiscal management, we have not had to raise taxes for the last two years in order to fund the growth and upgrades to our school programs. We will continue to be good stewards of the taxpayers? money. "

Well...the herd has weighed-in and ranted, but I haven't heard any heated comments from Teachers....they again prove they ARE the professionals. As for the strategy / planning of a strike....did all of you pay the sticker price for your cars & homes ?...wait for the best opportunity ?....negotiate a better deal ?.....hold out for a better interest rate ?

The CV school district taxpayers wallets are about to get alot lighter now.

It is nice to see that somebody in the union finally came to their senses and realized that to get a little, you must give a little. I have a feeling it wasn't Mr. Foerster, who appeared petulant, incredulous, and just out of touch with reality. Whomever saw through this and decided to bend a little from their position is to be commended. The teachers do deserve decent raises, I never questioned that. What bothered me was the unrealistic demands in light of the current economy and feelings of teacher entitlement (that just because the district has the money, we should get it attitude). Those reserves are for the future of the district, new schools, programs, etc. and not just to hand out arbitrarily because the surplus is there. I am glad this is resolved. Hopefully, all sides can move on, ratify the contract, and get back to educating the students.

Apparently, the school board must have given the teachers an education. How can people that claim to be educated, leave a negotiation after 5 minutes!!! This shows a true lack of professionalism! My son came home on Monday and told me his teacher told him not to worry about his homework until next week. The teachers knew they were going to walk out Monday night!! I am glad the Union and the Board have come to a tentative agreement, but why didn't the teachers talk it out Monday night? I think every teacher should have to write "I will remain calm, and not be a HOTHEAD" at least 500 times on each blackboard in the district!!!

Personally, I believe they wanted their holiday, too. I suppose who could blame them, if given the choice I'd take my vacation before I decided to strike. I also think weather and temperatures play a large roll. The teachers apparently like comfort, whether it be in the form of more padding in their paycheck or warmer weather in which to hold a sign.

OH, I didn't mean to say I didn't think she could have an opinion, what I found annoying was her arrogance about explaining to parents how easy it is to find childcare, how I was misinformed and lastly how I am basically clueless. I applaud her having a job, but find it hard to be comparable to what an adult goes through, however, I don't fault her for that, she doesn't know any better.That's why I explained I would not discuss this with her any further because we are on different pages and it wouldn't be fair to argue with someone about issues they can't understand from the perspective of a working parent. Her comments would be better off if instead of arguing with me and picking apart my posts, she would simply start her own discussion with her own points and arguments. That would be applaudable. I think that the teens can have valuable points and arguments, but not when they try to equate and compare themselves with working adult parents, that's where she lost her credibility with me.

Personally, and from hearing from others in the district administration, I believe the strike happened now, because the PSSA's are scheduled. The union knows how to strike effectively and this is the most effective time to strike, not during a lull or quiet time of the year, more panic will be caused with graduation approaching. This disruption comes at the worst time for the district because of the mess that trying to reschedule the PSSA's in addition to end of year field trips, activities, the play and school activities. This could not simply have been a coincidence. That view comes from many others that I won't list, but not just my own personal opinion. What is your take on why they waited until this particular week? For example, if the union was very concerned about the kids and parents disruption, it would have made more sense to strike last week during easter when many were already on holiday, but they chose not to?

Just looking over the most recent comments I wanted to take a bit of time to add my opinion, for what it's worth. Maggi, seeing as you have been getting fairly heated about this, I'll give you some support and say I mostly agree with you on the absurdity of this strike and what events have been accompanying it. However, your tone of arrogance over the high school senior who has recently written his/her opinions in this comment forum is fairly tactless. Why attack the youth with tales of not paying taxes leading to not having a valuable opinion? Personally, I think it?s great that a high school senior probably around the age of your daughter is practicing free speech intelligently. Is this not something you want your very own daughter to do when she feels strongly about something? Judging by your reactions to this issue I would assume and, personally, hope so. There are a large number of people involved in this strike matter all handling it very different ways. Differences of opinion are bound to occur, which they have. All I ask as that we remember to support our sides with DATA rather than POSITION be it age or location. A question I?m curious about: Do you think the teachers waited until this season in order to make striking temperatures more comfortable or was there an actual necessity to wait this long into the school year?

Here's an idea: sleep in, watch tv, snuggle with your kids. Speak up by not going to school tomorrow, sorry, I didn't get my 48 hours notice. How absurd! Now the union and board want parents at 11pm to scramble around again, this is unfair and this blackmailing has to stop!

Good night!